When Bret isn’t busy ruining our lives by creating the Bat Signal, he’s busy ranking things. Like, everything. I mean, look at this.
meme courtesy of @EricNeville
He actually made that ranking. It stunk.
Anyway, the Appels didn’t fall far from the tree (name humor) in this family, and sometimes we get the urge to rank things ourselves. Okay, fine, Ben gets the urge and I get a nervous breakdown. Nonetheless, what follows is at top 50 fantasy prospect ranking from each of us, and then an ensuing squabble about who did what wrong.
Enjoy.
Craig’s Top 50 |
Ben’s Top 50 |
1. Oscar Taveras, OF, STL |
1. Javier Baez, 2B, CHC |
2. Kris Bryant, 3B, CHC |
2. Oscar Taveras, OF, STL |
3. Byron Buxton, CF, MIN |
3. Kris Bryant, 3B/OF, CHC |
4. Javier Baez, 2B, CHC |
4. Byron Buxton, OF, MIN |
5. Noah Syndergaard, SP, NYM |
5. Carlos Correa, SS, HOU |
6. Addison Russell, SS, CHC |
6. Addison Russell, SS, CHC |
7. Carlos Correa, SS, HOU |
7. Noah Syndergaard, SP, NYM |
8. Joey Gallo, 3B, TEX |
8. Joey Gallo, 3B, TEX |
9. Taijuan Walker, SP, SEA |
8. Taijuan Walker, SP, SEA |
10. Corey Seager, SS, LAD |
9. Archie Bradley, SP, ARI |
11. Miguel Sano, 3B, MIN |
11. Miguel Sano, 3B, MIN |
12. Archie Bradley, SP, ARI |
12. Francisco Lindor, SS, CLE |
13. Arismendy Alcantara, 2B/OF, CHC |
13. Joc Pederson, OF, LAD |
14. Joc Pederson, OF, LAD |
14. Mookie Betts, OF/2B, BOS |
15. Lucas Giolito, SP, WAS |
15. Arismendy Alcantara, OF, CHC |
16. Francisco Lindor, SS, CLE |
16. Lucas Giolito, SP, WAS |
17. Jonathan Gray, SP, COL |
17. Robert Stephenson, SP, CIN |
18. Robert Stephenson, SP, CIN |
18. Corey Seager, SS, LAD |
19. Jorge Soler, OF, CHC |
19. Jonathan Gray, SP, COL |
20. Mookie Betts, OF/2B, BOS |
20. Jorge Soler, OF, CHC |
21. Nick Williams, OF, TEX |
21. Blake Swihart, C, BOS |
22. Carlos Rodon, SP, CHW |
22. Josh Bell, OF, PIT |
23. David Dahl, OF, COL |
23. Andrew Heaney, SP, MIA |
24. Josh Bell, OF, PIT |
24. Alex Meyer, SP, MIN |
25. Dylan Bundy, SP, BAL |
25. Stephen Piscotty, OF, STL |
26. Julio Urias, SP, LAD |
26. Nick Williams, OF, TEX |
27. Daniel Norris, SP, TOR |
27. Raimel Tapia, OF, COL |
28. Stephen Piscotty, OF, STL |
28. Carlos Rodon, SP, CHW |
29. Kyle Schwarber, C/OF, CHC |
29. Dylan Bundy, SP, BAL |
30. Rymer Liriano, OF, SD |
30. David Dahl, OF, COL |
31. Raimel Tapia, OF, COL |
31. Julio Urias, SP, LAD |
32. Matt Wisler, SP, SD |
32. Daniel Norris, SP, TOR |
33. Alex Meyer, SP, MIN |
33. Clint Frazier, OF, CLE |
34. Jameson Taillon, SP, PIT |
34. Maikel Franco, 3B/1B, PHI |
35. Blake Swihart, C, BOS |
35. Henry Owens, SP, BOS |
36. Jorge Alfaro, C, TEX |
36. Tyler Glasnow, SP, PIT |
37. Tyler Glasnow, SP, PIT |
37. Tim Anderson, SS, CHW |
38. Maikel Franco, 1B/3B, PHI |
38. Jorge Alfaro, C, TEX |
39. Henry Owens, SP, BOS |
39. Kyle Schwarber, C/OF, CHC |
40. Tim Anderson, SS, CHW |
40. Rymer Liriano, OF, SD |
41. Jimmy Nelson, SP, MIL |
41. Aaron Sanchez, SP, TOR |
42. Andrew Heaney, SP, MIA |
42. Matt Wisler, SP, SD |
43. Austin Meadows, OF, PIT |
43. Kyle Zimmer, SP, KC |
44. Clint Frazier, OF, CLE |
44. Jameson Taillon, SP, PIT |
45. Kyle Zimmer, SP , KC |
45. Braden Shipley, SP, ARI |
46. Dalton Pompey, OF, TOR |
46. Domingo Santana, OF, HOU |
47. Domingo Santana, OF, HOU |
47. Jimmy Nelson, SP, MIL |
48. Chi Chi Gonzalez, SP, TEX |
48. Sean Manaea, SP, KC |
49. Mark Appel, SP, HOU |
49. Kohl Stewart, SP, MIN |
50. Brandon Finnegan, SP, KC |
50. Mark Appel, SP, HOU |
Craig’s Toughest Omission: Kohl Stewart, SP, MIN
I love Stewart, and had him on the first couple iterations of this list, but between his level (Low-A), lack of innings (81 2/3 IP), being named after a department store (Kohl’s), and season ending arm injury (shoulder impingement from sleeping wrong), I just couldn’t bring myself to do it. I don’t believe the injury is serious in the slightest, but it both a) exists, and b) shortened his season at least a bit. He’ll still throw plenty of innings in 2015, but I do wonder if there’ll be a domino effect in terms of an innings cap that’ll come into play down the line, and might delay when he could arrive in the big leagues. It’s all hypothetical, but I couldn’t avoid it in my mind’s eye, and so he’s stuck at 51. I don’t feel good about it.
Ben’s Toughest Omission: Jake Marisnick, OF, Astros
A few weeks ago on TINO, I said Marisnick was a no-doubt top 50 dynasty league prospect following his trade to the Astros, and I staunchly defended him against the narrow-minded, wrong, stupid Mr. Goldstein. Yet it would appear that the joke is on me, as I cannot in good faith rank Marisnick above any of the players I have here. I get that Marisnick doesn’t profile as a player who will hit for a high average, but he has power and speed and I think he’ll get on base often enough to contribute meaningfully in runs, too. He’ll have to battle a bit with Domingo Santana for playing time, but if he wins out, we’re looking at a player who could hit .240 with 15 homers and 20-plus steals next season, with more power and a higher average potentially to come. If this list went to 55, Marisnick would be on it and I’d be confident about having him on here.
Craig’s Ranking He Feels Worst About: Henry Owens, SP, BOS
I don’t know what to do with Owens. Ben said of Alfaro while in the midst of ranking “he looks ten spots too high and too low at the same time,” which encapsulates how I feel about Owens. He’s got the upside of a no. 2 fantasy starter in my eyes, even if my gut keeps telling me he’s a real life number four. I keep wondering if the change is going to miss bats at the highest level, and if his on/off command is going to leave him vulnerable to elite bats. Yet every time I turn around, Owens is throwing six innings with near-double-digit strikeouts and two hits. There’s clearly something preventing batters from squaring him up and I can’t ignore that even if I don’t think he’s a front-end option. I don’t know what to do with Owens, and I don’t feel good about it.
Ben’s Ranking He Feels Worst About: Matt Wisler, SP, SD
Matt Wisler is non-buttered wheat toast served with lukewarm tap water boring to me. He doesn’t have big upside. He doesn’t have one particularly dazzling pitch. He doesn’t miss an insane amount of bats. But he really doesn’t have any weaknesses either. Wisler’s command isn’t elite, but he’s never walked more than 6.8 percent of the batters he’s faced at any level. He lacks a punch-out pitch, but has three above-average offerings. And he has the best contextual factors you could ask for for a pitcher, aside from the Padres also being good. Still, Wisler’s been billed as a no. 2-3 fantasy starter for a while now, and I can’t help but wonder if that’s too high. Petco is great and all, but I still see Wisler as more of a no. 4-5 fantasy starter with some better performances in his peak. That’s still lofty praise, but I have a bad feeling ranking him ahead of more talented pitchers like Zimmer and Taillon.
What Ben Got Wrong (by Craig): Rymer Liriano, OF, SD
Already up in the big leagues, I’m not sure what Liriano did to deserve being ranked behind Tim Anderson. As much as I was out on Anderson and then in on him after seeing him live, the kid is at High-A and recently fractured his wrist. They’re similar players to me, so I understand wanting to group them together, but the (now) three level gap, as well as success at the upper levels more than makes up for the positional difference between the two in my eyes, especially with questions surrounding Anderson’s ability to stick at shortstop. It is only a couple spots of course, and not worth freaking out about but I do think Liriano deserves to be ranked significantly higher thanks to his ability to provide value in speed and power departments, combined with his immediacy. I’m not sure what Ben is doing here, and I don’t feel good about it.
Ben’s Retort:
Listen, I really like Liriano, so it’s odd for me to have to have to tear him down here. But it’s not like he’s a five-category contributor, and he has the worst contextual factors you can possibly imagine, playing in Petco and batting in the Padres lineup. I’m hopeful he’ll hit 15-plus homers and swipe 20 bases next year, but honestly, I view him like I view Marisnick, just with a higher but still non-elite average. Liriano is good and he should be owned in 14-team leagues next year, but Anderson has the potential to produce across all five main offensive categories and to do so at shortstop. And it’s not like I’m gambling on a player in Rookie ball here—Anderson was succeeding in High-A, and should start there again next year as a 21-year-old. I don’t think ranking Liriano ahead of Anderson is nuts—they’re only four spots apart in my rankings—but don’t make it seem like there’s no Rymer reason for slotting Liriano behind Anderson, either.
What Craig Got Wrong (by Ben/world): Chi Chi Gonzalez, SP, TEX
I love the nickname too, so I get where Craig is coming from here, but Gonzalez doesn’t belong on this list. His numbers in Double-A are very good this year, what with the 2.11 ERA and the 1.17 WHIP. But he’s falling just short of a 20 percent strikeout rate, he’s walking batters at a decent clip, and he doesn’t have the profile of an extreme bat-misser at the next level. If Gonzalez was a Padre or a Giant, that would be fine. But I’m not super optimistic about a no. 3-4 MLB starter and no. 5-6 fantasy starter who’ll pitch half his games in Arlington. Gonzalez is definitely a top 75 name, and I get that the proximity gives him some appeal. But to me, he doesn’t have the upside of the other high minors guys on this list—yes, even Henry Owens—and there are at least a dozen prospects I’d have ranked before him. Sorry if this phrase brings back bad memories for you, but it’s just not an enticing package.
Craig’s Retort:
Big words coming from the guy who ranked Sean Manaea opposite Chi Chi. Manaea might have a big strikeout rate, but he’s still up near 12 percent on his walk in addition to other mediocre numbers while still in High-A (at the same age as Gonzalez, no less). Gonzalez’s strikeout rate might not take you from six to midnight, but you should still give it the time of day. It’s solid enough that, when combined with his groundball percentage (51 percent at Frisco), there’s a lot to like. By no means is Gonzalez a future front of the rotation fantasy guy, but I know for a fact we both like Martin Perez, and I’m not sure why Gonzalez would be any different. Gonzalez is two steps from the major leagues with a disaster of a rotation in front of him, so opportunity should abound. At the back end of the top 50, I don’t mind sacrificing some sex appeal for a little security. I’m sorry if that rung true for you. I don’t feel good about it.
Point of Mutual Agreement:
Ben: Dom Smith did not factor in here.
Craig: Nor did Dan Vogelbach. Rough day for all the “Big Sexy”
Thank you for reading
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Better question: who is most likely going to be left out of the Cubs starting lineup in a year or two that will likely be traded?
Do you start with a previous ranking (say, Brett's mid-season list, or the preseason one) and a list of guys who've impressed you that you'd like to include, and then go top-down, comparing players 1-1 (or removing guys who "graduated") and looking for places to slot in your extra guys?
Do you start with a much longer list like a top 250 and group the players into tiers, then refine the individual positions within tiers? Are the tiers based on overall ability, or do you break out by profiles like OFs, IFs, Cs, SPs, or by dominant tool and later stitch the list back together?
You both have OT and Bryant above Buxton. Is this a preference for proximity, or have you seen something in the past month that either downgrades Buxton or upgrades the other two? Is Buxton still a "perennial top-5 pick" ceiling?
Likewise, Noah Syndergaard is up about 4 spots, while Sano is down 5 on your lists relative to Brett's. Is that recency bias, has Syndergaard shown something a lot more in the past month to get the upgrade? Has Sano lost ground, or would the injury have made him lower for you guys even last month?
Re: Syndergaard -- I think that's a pure disagreement between Bret and I (I won't speak for Ben). I declared Syndergaard my top pitching prospect prior to the season, and while he's struggled some with health, he's healthy now and I have no problem with him assuming that top spot. I think he can contribute as soon as the Mets let him and it's my opinion that that contribution will exceed whatever Walker gives the Ms, and Bradley the DBacks. Both of those guys have suffered some injuries this season, and neither is pitching at the major league level, which set me back to my ranking coming into the season, with Syndergaard on top.
no? That depends a lot on context and what the team needs. They're fairly deep in pitching, so perhaps they would. This is a fantasy prospect ranking, so whether an MLB team would trade one for the other isn't particularly relevant.